The making of a graphic design book – David Airey | Ep 134



hello and welcome to another episode of the creative waffle podcast today you listen to myself mark irons and David arey you've probably heard it before but if not is it designed updog an author most famous for this book work for money design for love it's a fantastic book and definitely my favorite so what funds opposed to those there and we discuss it throughout the episode he recently brought out a new book identity designed the definitive guide to visual identity great book as well again but all the way through this book from the episode we talked about this contents how its produced the process of making the book itself so you get a good insight into this book and as others during episode if you have a topic to talk about in this episode our clients pricing writing project processes staying fit and healthy as a designer and also go a little bit deeper at the end of the episodes as you always do please do stick around until the end if you liked this episode please do give it a thumbs up on YouTube and subscribe thank you to everyone who has done that so far we just here a thousand subscribers and that's just amazing and if you're on iTunes please do leave a review that really would help us get out the rankings as always you can help out the podcast down below basically you're sharing around I'll also leave the links to the books down in the description below and a few of our show notes and podcast links down in the description I've ever do let's get into the podcast this is my chat with David arey so you'll see the new books coming up I was really out now isn't it yeah it was last in January the end of January and yes saw like the first print one so I can't complain about that although it would be nice to have a few more copies because obviously I'm UK it's not okay that's why this one took so long yes I got on here that's right I came on Friday so I had to quickly scan through it all this video is all good yeah I was in yeah yeah yeah well thanks very much copy every hitter you know where it's Norris yeah listening to actually I will do this but first so how did you get into design and I sort of but what strikes the passion however they get into it well at college I was on an urban design course and design was the subject that I preferred find it more interesting and probably because the quality of my well my students the students that were around me they weren't as good as they are now it you know that I can see we got because has come up and if I look at student work now I I think back to my time as a student and think what is coming to do the work that I did back then would never have me any students portfolio today oh that way no it's just it was pretty amateurish yeah your how long was it in Houston I'm twenty so about two three years tears and I guess you still have do you have a portfolio that concludes your student working yeah yeah yeah if I put my student work in my portfolio I wouldn't get any any clients at all mission so when I was studying it just what was the question again as you can say yeah ideally I was strikes a passion for it it's the fact that it's always different depending on the client that you work with you know despite the fact that I love designing identities and logos it's not always the same I can learn I can learn so much depending on who I'm working with and who approaches me so it's the same like put generally but the input is always very different it keeps it fresh yeah absolutely I mean do you finally just seeing your work out there as well that sort of amazing this part of the passion for it yes it's great and unfortunately with most of my clients being overseas I don't generally get to see the end result in person but you know when you see photos and yeah it's that's nice I like that part of it that it's cool that I working overseas say that it must be yeah they they fairly about corporate clients or you very big clients or what class you get in ranges it could be a one-person startup it could be a company with a hundred people in it and anything in between so it's it's it's pretty incredible when I think about how it came about you know just starting a few design blogs and yes that's how most of my business comes in as people find in the online in terms of my marketing that's really one of these is keeping my websites for action then the books help too because the occasional plant that pick up my book and a bookstore and then get it touching me that way that's cool that's really cushy and then I was listening to a podcast for you and Ian Padgett Logan geek and he mentioned on it about the 1% of people that start a podcast a 1% people that start a blog so what was your what was your reasoning for starting the blog like what why did it all start it was it was initially started to really use to keep my website updated more regularly and the project Saturday night because clients were really thin on the grind for me when I started and when I started I was I was employed well I wasn't employed I had a retainer client for three days a week and then the other two days I would work on building my online presence and so it took quite a while before I would get any clients through my website and because of that someone might have told me a bit about SEO and the you know you keep your website updated that will help people find you make it a bit easier for me so I started publishing blog posts in the clients and telling them more about what they can expect from me and you know what makes a good logo that type of thing but then I kind of switched it because the comments that I was getting on my blog posts were from other designers and then I kind of got into a small group of designers who have their own blogs and we each commented them only shoulders websites so my posts tended to switch towards speaking to the designers instead that's kind of high that the audience grew a bit more and then as designers had their own blogs and websites they then link to my articles which would get me up in the search rankings a bit more so I find it more beneficial to talk to people who are doing the same thing rather than designers or Rathlin clients all right and then other really fans to find the work anyway and find the website so so it helped in both respects that's very interesting because I think that that was already and they the audience and the people you want to work with oversee clients and not specifically designers or they can pass your work but so how does that happen then how ours is it just by searching the word logo design and then you boom at the top it used to be like you mentioned you mentioned the impact there I think he's he's cornered the market there in the UK well as much as I used to it's it's more that's kind of taking precedence not yeah but I intend to change that I want to needs an update that hasn't been changed in four or five years so yeah that's that's quite a long time compared to what should be you know you should you should never be happy with your portfolio yeah well that's that struggle isn't it like say it's the hardest clients yourself lying around let it go I ain't signing our website but like this 1% thing already fascinates but like having someone else said it to me before I heard on the podcast and like yeah not many people start podcast so many people get themselves out there I had what was the point when you realized I was easy I don't know because I was supposed to read like what's the reason to start a pot a block i apart from getting yourself out there is there any reason is there any is that just to me I don't know I don't know the question was I wouldn't sound anywhere near the first person to write I definitely wasn't but it was other it was at a point in time when it was quite still quite new and it was 2005 so design gloves hadn't been around for too long for that and maybe five No five six seven years and it was I've lost the question I say what was it let's just go this one look where does that cleanse that passion for starting starting a blog or something come from because like I said not everyone does it and it's only 1% does it so what actually strikes that passion night we're all grew although we all look love logo design but Wow how do you get to the next level we start a blog about it well it's kind of a facilitator into doing the work you want to do because we're at where else you want to get your clients other than well cooled cold calls knocking on doors that type of thing which which can't work but I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend it from my experience and it's been much more beneficial for me to do good work put it right there try and get it seen and yeah it's it just seems more it makes more sense rather than getting people to kind of trust you based on no background that they have a if you if you've got a website that shows your passion then people are going to be more likely to trust you and whether or not you get the job depends on whether a client trusts you more than ever else sort of cannot because they'll always be looking at someone else too so compare your website to the best out there and if it's not as good then just you know hey that's good yeah so that one's I compare myself as a pentagram understudy like changing it to make it look a bit more like them trying to like the layout and stuff like like you got a real nice like clean layout at the moment I works really well but yeah it's interesting it's interesting to do that and so the douche did you still do all the blogs three links you say you do it less now I do I do yeah I would update each blog a half three and I would update them maybe once every couple of weeks it used to be almost every day or every other day yeah it took up a lot more of my time in the past but but not so much time yeah I remember IT class I used to have an access to computers I used to go on it basically on that on the blog and then when we I started letting you stop five minutes or so as well on the first website sheets go to you like good as I love it's amazing the guy who created it and I used to see me in in was always like really good at commenting on them as well he's always pretty much straight on there yes yes all the comments are really appreciated because not only do they help me realize that somebody actually reads the posts a little bit to the page because if there's questions posed or if it's controversial work the comments can always be interesting too yeah I've always been like the writer or because you were in free books now you've got blogs you go everything well I do call myself a writer but my first book the the first edition of golda's I know that was in 2008 that I wrote that and I definitely wouldn't have called myself a writer than and if you'd have seen the feedback that I was getting from my editor because it's it's the is the kind of human you you submit your homework does he turn it comes back red marks all over it was the type of thing you know what's called books you read at the moment as it may be slow go step for write read ever stuff no no it's not design stuff at all actually and literally I find myself getting into more work to do with why societies function which is quite different and I watched quite a lot of interviews with people like Noam Chomsky and Sam Harris and yeah things like that so it's definitely beneficial for any designer to put them sell outside the design sphere you know don't take up all your time working on or write learning about design because the more you know about other areas then the better even the better at work you can produce for your clients because it's all about curiosity really when it comes down to it yeah cuz I I don't really listen to a lot sign podcasts was he predicts I'd do one I have like he is listening talking about design all the time in yo another conversation because I ask it that but you Joe Rogan big influence my life and you got Jordan Peterson like people I like those sort of conversations say me what happened really important is the Jordans interview with Kathy Newman on channel 4 yeah yeah the bait is into your like a very biased one yeah yeah are attacking or the interviewers sorry yeah interesting the listen to yeah absolutely like he just knows a lot of stuff about countries as well which I find cool it comes over here he knows our system you know who's on question time and he knew it he knew what he does he done his research enlistees a stuff about Scandinavia as well he clearly knows what was going on around the world and yeah from the BBC one want that one because he was on it I was in the audience once the question time when I came over to Belfast and one of my questions was picked actually I was it was interesting was a good experience and it didn't seem to me that it was biased then when you see some people appear in the audience over and over again and they're the ones that are you know pointed out yeah further for their opinions it just makes it seem a bit more fake yeah yeah I know I was talking to my auntie this is interesting how it's just gone completely way design but it hugs my auntie about about YouTube and she was trying argue that the BBC is is your pure more pure than YouTube and it's like it's not a you to bring BBC a completely different like the BBC is something that's on YouTube these days and they're just never TV channel on YouTube and they got you too which is gives you so many different varieties and so in different opinions and it's it's amazing you can you can watch what you want I think I have one was like you know they do filter it so you get tiered systems and rankings which obviously every platform has to do it's like Google Voice yeah we can't have a page of a million view pay a million videos in front of you I don't we had to see which ones you're watching yeah this yeah I think argument was like yeah but they're all doing if their agenda they're all doing to make money yes that's a big companies point that's what that's trying to do there once right make money yeah there's so much there's so much cool stuff on YouTube and the fact you can go and watch Jordan peace and being argued down I think I'm watching another video where he's on top and there's massive Jordan Peterson found making him look brilliant either completely opposite way it's just yes I've both use yeah whereas if you're focused on swimming on BBC or any other ministry yeah you're told what they want you to hear most of the time so yeah it's important to to look at both sides to the story yeah that's it especially between TV and YouTube and yeah I think YouTube just just destroys on TV is it so much more you can see there's so much different different varieties and it's for audiences and kids as well and yeah if there's a great job anyway I don't know out when there's no let's talk about the book so it starts with a pool round quote how much have you been influenced by poor and well I've read I've read a book of his and I admire his work greatly and I admire his ability to shoot clients that he knows what he's doing whereas clients will always want to have well the clients that I've dealt with anyway they'll always want to have their own and put into the end of the outcome which is important to an extent and but you've got to you've got to tell them that you know what you're doing you've got to explain to them that they need to put faith in you so yeah Paul around was one of the best at doing that you know if you've seen as the Steve Jobs interview you know where he said something like exactly what he said but Steve Jobs basically Paul Ryan said to him you know I'm gonna give you one option and you can choose to use it if you don't want to use it that's up to you I wouldn't go out forward my clients you know I would always give them the option of hiring me for more than one option or for more than one designed you know if I'm making a presentation I will generally give a right and a left so they have something to choose from but sometimes if clients didn't have the budget initially I could say well what you do is put a bit more trust in me and I will focus on one and then if you don't like it you know we can go run some you know tweak it a little bit but if they have more of a budget then I'll come up with a second idea or a third idea never more than that well what did you think of that Paul Rand but it was it the next thing when they said under charge a million dollars and that's that's fine also I think but it was the next look who that Steve Jobs is talking a white yeah and there was one projects where when when Paul Ryan said I my works like were four million I should that I should know the quote spared me but I put my mother my works like were four million pounds or million dollars and that's how much I'm gonna charge you for it I said I come after the cup that's really annoying me now designers so yeah so when dealing with clients or see the book talks about it as well they talk about pricing and stuff how do you negotiate pricing because it seems like a lot of agencies charged a lot of different prices we your approach if you learned anything from speaking to these agencies on how to get like a definitive answer for pricing is there a like an actual figure that a design is worth is it or is it just just depend on who the client is and I heard the designers is that sure it should it be a static figure for a logo design well I think it will always depend on who the designer is you set your prices well for another client kind of for does another thing but you you want to attract the clients that can pay you what you're worth mmm in order to figure out what you're worth you need to start somewhere so for me it was a case of building it from an already rigged and decide I'm figuring out how many hours it's going to spend on the project a man adding on a little bit more for the dime time when I wouldn't have any clients and I started there and then over the years just gradually increased it and kept going kept going because your work gets better and as that happens then the clients budgets tend to get better because people can people know that people do good design when they see it even when they're not designers no not all the time but generally especially with the clients that want to pay good money nothing they look they look at who knows five million portfolios before deciding to hire you so yeah they'll have a good idea of what they're looking for is that doing the blokes is that help doing that because your company's young could design has that how to get better clients yeah I think so because it's yeah people clients will find me through the three blog posts and what even when it's other people's work that's focus that's feature than that I would say more often than not the people responsible for the work they'll get the they'll get the clients instead right that's fine by me too if I can point clients someone's way and brilliant yeah when you when you're dealing with a client how does your process work and does it differ from these big agencies you've got in the book a little but not too much and there are generally four stages that I work through which are very similar to OCD Xin in the book there's there's some there's research strategy design and implementation and that rationale though those words probably came directly from OCD but it's what I was doing and I don't know of any project that I've done that hasn't really involved other than the implementation part at the end sometimes I'll be laughed and carried on to a client who they would deal with printers they might deal with even people at launch websites for them if that's not something that I take care of so yes research strategy which is essentially having a plan and then design and definitely that's all that's what I do and then implementation sometimes yeah because you go into a bit more detail about each each stage well researchers essentially find that as much as you can about the client in the time that you have because there has to be a time a time limit set on otherwise you can keep me searching them till you were in telling you as much well not as much but almost as much as the people who are in charge of the business suit and that might be a week it might be a month and the designers or the strategy aspect has essentially taken all the research that you have and figuring out where the client wants to go and how they're going to get there and what what is going to work best in terms of the design and then once you have about commonplace its agreed upon with the client then you can work on the design so that you're you're not left producing something that the client you know it's so yeah so looks like it's a chronological order and the bubblebeam if you get to once that once th you might find yourself moving back a little bit so there's flexibility but yeah taking them taking them steps and usually you can't go too much wrong yeah so far in that process is definitely good then that's not something you recommend for young designers as well yeah of course for that every every project has to have a process can't just jump straight into the design otherwise you'll just frustrate yourself and what he likes what you create nice good to the book itself like could you talk to me through that process may in the house right well it's it's the end of designers as well as business owners and the idea was that it shows it shows how to create a visual identity from start to finish from client approach from how you find them right through to hi hi the workers rule dogs and the high success is measured at the end so it goes into details such as the terms and conditions that you might have with your clients through to pricing and higher price why your price might change over time and how you come up with ideas how you interpret the brief from the client and how you narrow the focus and yeah there's there's a lot inside anything any questions that you have about visual identity hopefully will be answered in at least at least half of the 16 kiss toys so now that was the idea so I'm to focus it on or to aim at designers as well as business owners I thought would be helpful and well in getting more seals as well as getting more attention to the sea news inside yeah no that's true yeah I mean the more people that you can appeal to yeah Oh see any more sales so how's it going how's the sales going to pour some good it's still not selling quite as well as Lugar design love which was interesting well hopefully hopefully seals will pick up whenever it gets back in the stock in the UK UK website and if that's the reason may build away in free to get become stuck perhaps whether there's all I could I be doing worded promoters as well personal issues you know with my Mari separation have kind of affected things about that that came in well that was something that started halfway through when I was writing the book which yeah which was which made things quite a bit more of a challenge than they might have been otherwise and that's one of the reasons why my website said to have taken a bit of downtime well but yeah better times are ahead and yeah hopefully hopefully anyone that reads the book will find it useful I've got some great feedback from so far and the few reviews there are announcing have been brilliant ooh that's fantastic yeah and for people who struggling with time management and balancing family life and everything so I've had a few things going on family stuff and everyone does it once family stuff going on as we got any tips for balancing your workload and family life sure because it's been it's been something I've been struggling with a bit recently focus it's important to to keep yourself healthy so if you find it if you think you're spending too long doing one thing then change and because your mindset plays a huge role a huge part in the quality of the work and the call that your relationships so it's it's really a an individual thing if you if you find yourself getting into a rut one thing that helps me personally is just moving is getting some exercise whether that's even just going for a walk or going for a run or lifting a few weeks or yeah or missing my days of playing football and I'm trying to compensate some other way and it's it's really an individual thing that but no you're right about they they're getting faced and staying healthy going especially people in deaths jobs like us we need to do it we need to get up and move around there's too many people that I see in this community especially like just don't do any exercise and it gets you free their brains it would I when I'm in the gym I don't think about work I'm just I'm just just on the weights I'm just on the music my hair isn't just on the podcast listening to it's fantastic it really does like well I want like come on I'm playing football it's a escape yeah and that's so important I've had a few swims recently and that's one of the things that I think about afterwards when I'm leaving the pool is that I wasn't thinking about anything really I was just focused swimming so it's kind of like it's kind of like a meditation really secure way today I'll be grating for an emperor poker so easy Chandler football meditation yeah so what's the result of the book like was what do you hope to get out of it well hopefully it will help me to attract more of the clients that I want to get a picture too and and hopefully it will raise the game of the people who read it because it's it's something that I want to read again even though I broke even though I cannot put it together I want to sit down and go through it because even my other two books I could read down again and probably forget that most of the words came out of my mouth because my yeah it's one of those things I could watch a film and then a few years later forget most of it and watch it again allow me to be like watching it from scratch no I don't know what thoughts in my memory isn't isn't that great I can remember the important things but when it comes to small details it's good to get that reminder 19 so yeah I'll go through the book and a lot manikyam I'll hopefully get some more great clients and if I can do the same for anyone who picks it up and yeah that's like a cherry on top nice there's a few things I really love about the book first of all just like the quality of it and someone a big coffee table books where you saw back it's just it's as well made it as well what was like cuz it you ever one yeah it's paper listen hardback as well grading on that one what was the right reasoning for upgrading on on the on the printing and everything I think it was a suggestion from a publisher I was expecting it to be paperback yeah and and they pitched yet they they said yeah we could do the first run and in a hardcover and I thought brilliance wasn't something that I was thinking about but it just gives a little bit a bit more what's the word no no but it does look more quality I'm really pleased with how it turned out here and there have been a couple of a couple of readers have kindly gotten touch to point out a couple of typos which wasn't and so if you see one apologies for those but they'll be fixed they'll be fixed in the next and the next print run yeah please there's so many good books out there so many good typos like the latest put Lance Weimer and unit editions book on the spine of the book they had the typo on the web process they missed off an S yeah yeah thankfully thankfully yeah thankfully recovers okay there aren't any tangles in the car but would be frustrating but it comes to all obvious everyone makes mistakes so it's true everything I really like about it is the the key point split parts on each chapter by the key points like to exam I'm a reader where I like to flick through books and maybe not really at all so have you got a key point section end of each chapter that's really really handy let's check out the best bits so yeah thank you for doing that yeah I should also give a shout out to Alina we're the author of designer brand identity because on the back cover you'll see there are a couple of testimonials from from other people yeah Paris is one of them and so she she would have received a PDF of the book you know before it was printed and she was giving me some feedback on the design as well and yes she was she was a great help there as well as were anyone else as was with the other people who gave me some comments like Sangeeta believe in and there was Bernadette and look who they have features on on the website their quotes her listed there but there wasn't enough written on the back cover for there's too unfortunately some big names big lay it's nice so with that you literally just sending out to them and then asking for an opinion or how's that yeah just sending them that the PDF they're in progress PDF because it wasn't quite finished and asking if they had time to give me some some feedback for the cover or for their promotions and thankfully thankfully they did yeah so it's like that you said that start this like the old industry is it's really nice and they're already friendly and and while most of people as a tell them and they yeah they're willing to help most of the time so it's great it's great that you got like massive people like that are willing to help yeah yeah it is and most of the people that I've come in contact with have been brilliant – it's one of the things that I love about being in the design profession not just that I love the job but the people involved because they know the job – you can be pretty friendly absolutely is there anything you learn from making this book well other than other than the advice that's given from all the studios yeah proof it one more time I think I think I read it twice I have a proofreader of my publisher as well um but I got it after the proofreader saw it and I was picking up on a few things they miss but unfortunately yeah there are a few things that I miss too but yeah other than well the big the big takeaway is Watson but what's inside the design studios have shared yes is massive because you generally don't get that level of detail and and any portfolio case study so hopefully hopefully people will pick it up and think that it's for the price it's massively valuable I think it is I would pay a lot more for that I think it's less than $20 on amazon.com the minute and just for the quality of book as well for the quality of print I'm not just saying that because because I know you're right I mean I think both your books I mean I haven't read the first logo design love but the Bofors books like your work for money time for love that's that could be a hundred dollars easily because like the amount of like it's basically all free and start a freelance business so yeah it's very very I mean if you did a video like reading this if you did like an audiobook of this I think oh they can sell that but yeah that's awesome thank you very much and last couple of questions first of all what's your best bit of advice to creatives mmm-hmm be careful who you take advice on and some opinions are more valuable than others interesting who are you as I say like other people and who is your and thinking more of social media and the impact that's having on people's work when you put something online you know stranger so you'll never meet who you'll never find out anything about can tear something to shreds and you know that can have an impact so you've you've an impact on you on your mindset but you just got to be careful about yeah pay more attention to the opinions of people who are in the trenches with you rather than somebody who is you know won't even share a website or you know it doesn't have one or doesn't put up a profile photo that type of thing cool that's good advice what's your best purchase under 100 pounds hmm well we're talking about how a we spend a lot of time synod asks and I get quite I get quite tight my shoulders yeah number two Don's so there's a there's a massage chair that I use it's an electric thing that just has two in balls on it but I can lie back I put my shoulders on I think being on some I used to go for massages but what I find was that the person doing it they would they would work on my shoulder knots for a while but then they would move on to somewhere else and it would never be long enough but this it's just another thing like the size of this book really and it cost 40 quid and yeah it really helps to relieve some tension no because headaches is another thing that I get my own game and I know that part of that is time to tension in my shoulders in there so yes it's important and free I wish as much as possible you know I was a good purchase absolutely yeah I like we said about it perform like it's definitely good to gap and I say Rea over the hour but I'll see if you're in working and you go ahead down you can't there every hour ok get up move around drink water and go away from the screen yeah yeah good purchase yeah what are some good values to live by mm-hmm deep here yeah Darcy questions I treat people the way you want to be treated really and always remember that people have a lot of people can have a lot of bad things going on in their lives don't take things too personally if someone hits out for any reason or I think it was Steve Jobs who might have said something like make a dent in the universe but for me that's that person who asked us to a guy I would much rather focus on making a difference in the area around me you know family friends and even just you know people at the shop until you know when you're and you're buying some groceries or whatever if you can make someone smile and around them contouring that's that's a good way to pass on a little bit of brightness that's nice I think you pretty only last this question with that but how do you want to be remembered as a good parent as a good son as a good brother and a good friend that's lovely pretty good thank you very much thanks Barry on the podcast we will find you and rate your blog sweetie books everything if you search for my knee and David arey AI R oh listen have you ever thought about bringing a podcast I've thought about doing an online course a video of course based on the book and I was I was toying with the idea before this latest book but then I thought I don't know enough so well it would be great to get advice from design studios around the world so that might be something that I work on later this year okay exciting all right sounds good looking forward to if it happens yeah thanks very much again for you on the podcast Ron thank you so much for listening to this episode of the crazy awful podcast like I said before down description below there's a couple of ways to help how the show any of those would be really appreciated now also add this called group so get involved in the conversation for all the crazy awful podcast listeners so we're listening along there be link down the description after that for the discord group you can click on that and get invited into the group that's it for this episode thanks so much listening along or watching along I hope you enjoyed it's please do give it a thumbs up or share or review really really does help I see you next week another episode creative waffle podcast thank you

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